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	<title>Comments on: Claims about ODF support are typically meaningless</title>
	<link>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm</link>
	<description>"As noble thoughts the inward being grace, So noble whiskers dignify the face."</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 02:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: PT&#8217;s blog &#187; Study shows real-world ODF/OOXML interoperability is not great</title>
		<link>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1957</link>
		<dc:creator>PT&#8217;s blog &#187; Study shows real-world ODF/OOXML interoperability is not great</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1957</guid>
		<description>[...] This makes perfect sense for real-world testing. The results are interesting and unsurprising (to me, at least). Basically the best interoperability is between Microsoft Office Word and OpenOffice.org Writer [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] This makes perfect sense for real-world testing. The results are interesting and unsurprising (to me, at least). Basically the best interoperability is between Microsoft Office Word and OpenOffice.org Writer [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Marbux</title>
		<link>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1880</link>
		<dc:creator>Marbux</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 12:48:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1880</guid>
		<description>I am a retired lawyer and former member of the OpenDocument Technical Committee who quit because of the anti-interoperability attitude of a voting majority of the TC. OOXML and ODF are about on a par as to interoperability. ODF has had the advantage of far fewer patent restrictions. OOXML's interoperability warts have been thoroughly discussed by others so I will confine my discussion to ODF. 

The ODF TC was chartered in 2002 to create a standard for a set of formats for the interoperable interchange of documents among competing applications. Sun's OpenOffice.org XML format was chosen as the beginning point and Sun staffers were made the chairman and secretary. But Sun steadfastly shot down nearly all proposals over the years directed toward making the formats vendor-neutral. 

OpenDocument interoperability is a complete and utter myth constructed on the widespread misconception that an open format is necessarily an interoperable format. The situation is only slightly better than with MS Office because OOo is distributed under an open source license that allows other developers to clone its code base. But it is necessary to achieve non-lossy interoperability that everyone exchanging documents be using the same version number of the code base. With other ODF implementations, you may achieve non-lossy interoperability if everyone involved is using the same application and version of it. 

Whether you experience data loss when there is a mismatch in applications or version numbers in the exchange depends on what ODF functionality is invoked at each end of the round trip with a particular document. If an OpenOffice.org ODF document uses an ODF feature that has no counterpart in KOffice, opening it in the latter will will not result in the same processing of the document because there is no corresponding feature in KOffice to map to. The same issue exists when going between earlier and later versions of OOo or its clones. 

There are many other interoperability issues in ODF. Here is my current list of interoperability check points that both ODF and OOXML fail except as noted in the list. If you need assistance with vocabulary, you will find a helpful glossary at http://www.universal-interop-council.org/glossary

* Full-featured editors available that do not generate vendor-specific extensions?
* Interoperability of implementations mandatory?
* Interoperability between different IT systems demonstrated?
* Profiles developed and required for interoperability?
* Methodology specified for interoperability between less and more featureful applications?
* Specifies conformity requirements essential to achieve interoperability?
* Interoperability conformity assessment procedure(s) formally established and validated?
* Document validation procedures valid?
* Fully specified interoperability framework?
* Vendor-specific extensions classified as non-conformant?
* Preservation of markup necessary for interoperability mandatory?
* XML namespaces for incorporated standards properly implemented? (ODF-only failure because Microsoft incorporated only one relevant standard, XML 1.0)
* Optional feature interop breakpoints eliminated?
* Scripting language specified for embedded scripts?
* Hooks fully specified for use by embedded scripts?
* Portable cross-platform? (OOXML-only failure)
* Adequate cultural and linguistic adaptability?
* IPR restrictions absent?
* Vendor- and application-neutral?
* Capable of converging desktop, server, Web, and mobile device editors and viewers? (ODF-only failure but OOXML only within the context of the Microsoft stack)
* Responsiveness to market requirements for interoperability?

If anyone should tell you that ODF is designed for interoperability or is an interoperable set of formats, they are either ignorant, deliberately disseminating disinformation, or both. I will close with the words of Thomas Zander, a member of the ODF Technical Committee and lead developer of the KOffice KWord application:

"One thing I have always dreamed to be possible is that when I write a doc in KOffice I can then open it in OOo to use that one feature that's useful to me and then save it and continue in KOffice without loosing lots of data.

"Its still a dream, of course. Most features are lost on opening and saving it in OOo, but its a nice goal[.]" 

http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/odf-adoption/200709/msg00032.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a retired lawyer and former member of the OpenDocument Technical Committee who quit because of the anti-interoperability attitude of a voting majority of the TC. OOXML and ODF are about on a par as to interoperability. ODF has had the advantage of far fewer patent restrictions. OOXML&#8217;s interoperability warts have been thoroughly discussed by others so I will confine my discussion to ODF. </p>
<p>The ODF TC was chartered in 2002 to create a standard for a set of formats for the interoperable interchange of documents among competing applications. Sun&#8217;s OpenOffice.org XML format was chosen as the beginning point and Sun staffers were made the chairman and secretary. But Sun steadfastly shot down nearly all proposals over the years directed toward making the formats vendor-neutral. </p>
<p>OpenDocument interoperability is a complete and utter myth constructed on the widespread misconception that an open format is necessarily an interoperable format. The situation is only slightly better than with MS Office because OOo is distributed under an open source license that allows other developers to clone its code base. But it is necessary to achieve non-lossy interoperability that everyone exchanging documents be using the same version number of the code base. With other ODF implementations, you may achieve non-lossy interoperability if everyone involved is using the same application and version of it. </p>
<p>Whether you experience data loss when there is a mismatch in applications or version numbers in the exchange depends on what ODF functionality is invoked at each end of the round trip with a particular document. If an OpenOffice.org ODF document uses an ODF feature that has no counterpart in KOffice, opening it in the latter will will not result in the same processing of the document because there is no corresponding feature in KOffice to map to. The same issue exists when going between earlier and later versions of OOo or its clones. </p>
<p>There are many other interoperability issues in ODF. Here is my current list of interoperability check points that both ODF and OOXML fail except as noted in the list. If you need assistance with vocabulary, you will find a helpful glossary at <a href="http://www.universal-interop-council.org/glossary" rel="nofollow">http://www.universal-interop-council.org/glossary</a></p>
<p>* Full-featured editors available that do not generate vendor-specific extensions?<br />
* Interoperability of implementations mandatory?<br />
* Interoperability between different IT systems demonstrated?<br />
* Profiles developed and required for interoperability?<br />
* Methodology specified for interoperability between less and more featureful applications?<br />
* Specifies conformity requirements essential to achieve interoperability?<br />
* Interoperability conformity assessment procedure(s) formally established and validated?<br />
* Document validation procedures valid?<br />
* Fully specified interoperability framework?<br />
* Vendor-specific extensions classified as non-conformant?<br />
* Preservation of markup necessary for interoperability mandatory?<br />
* XML namespaces for incorporated standards properly implemented? (ODF-only failure because Microsoft incorporated only one relevant standard, XML 1.0)<br />
* Optional feature interop breakpoints eliminated?<br />
* Scripting language specified for embedded scripts?<br />
* Hooks fully specified for use by embedded scripts?<br />
* Portable cross-platform? (OOXML-only failure)<br />
* Adequate cultural and linguistic adaptability?<br />
* IPR restrictions absent?<br />
* Vendor- and application-neutral?<br />
* Capable of converging desktop, server, Web, and mobile device editors and viewers? (ODF-only failure but OOXML only within the context of the Microsoft stack)<br />
* Responsiveness to market requirements for interoperability?</p>
<p>If anyone should tell you that ODF is designed for interoperability or is an interoperable set of formats, they are either ignorant, deliberately disseminating disinformation, or both. I will close with the words of Thomas Zander, a member of the ODF Technical Committee and lead developer of the KOffice KWord application:</p>
<p>&#8220;One thing I have always dreamed to be possible is that when I write a doc in KOffice I can then open it in OOo to use that one feature that&#8217;s useful to me and then save it and continue in KOffice without loosing lots of data.</p>
<p>&#8220;Its still a dream, of course. Most features are lost on opening and saving it in OOo, but its a nice goal[.]&#8221; </p>
<p><a href="http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/odf-adoption/200709/msg00032.html" rel="nofollow">http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/odf-adoption/200709/msg00032.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Unilever Centre for Molecular Informatics, Cambridge - Jim Downing &#187; Blog Archive &#187; ODF fillip</title>
		<link>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1877</link>
		<dc:creator>Unilever Centre for Molecular Informatics, Cambridge - Jim Downing &#187; Blog Archive &#187; ODF fillip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 09:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1877</guid>
		<description>[...] approach to text mining is necessarily pragmatic, which changes your outlook significantly (for detailed  reasons why, read Peter Sefton&#8217;s blog). OOXML may be a flawed spec born of a standardisation [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] approach to text mining is necessarily pragmatic, which changes your outlook significantly (for detailed  reasons why, read Peter Sefton&#8217;s blog). OOXML may be a flawed spec born of a standardisation [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1860</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 22:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1860</guid>
		<description>Let me know what program versions you are using, and I'll try it. For that matter email me a copy of the file you are using, and I'll try that as well, I'm curious to see what happens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me know what program versions you are using, and I&#8217;ll try it. For that matter email me a copy of the file you are using, and I&#8217;ll try that as well, I&#8217;m curious to see what happens.</p>
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		<title>By: ptsefton</title>
		<link>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1855</link>
		<dc:creator>ptsefton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 05:28:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1855</guid>
		<description>@wayne

Installed AbiWord on Ubuntu and tried it on a test doc. Indenting OK but does not respect ODT 'restart numbering' on lists. Some styles have come through OK but all list styles are in Standard style. Embedded photos not working. Document outline numbering attached to numbered heading style not showing.

Not suitable for use on ICE documents - clearly has shall we say 'different' ODF support from Writer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@wayne</p>
<p>Installed AbiWord on Ubuntu and tried it on a test doc. Indenting OK but does not respect ODT &#8216;restart numbering&#8217; on lists. Some styles have come through OK but all list styles are in Standard style. Embedded photos not working. Document outline numbering attached to numbered heading style not showing.</p>
<p>Not suitable for use on ICE documents - clearly has shall we say &#8216;different&#8217; ODF support from Writer.</p>
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		<title>By: ptsefton</title>
		<link>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1854</link>
		<dc:creator>ptsefton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 04:46:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1854</guid>
		<description>@Wayne again - just tried TextEdit on one of our test documents. No styles support and it doesn't even render indented lists vaguely correctly. It may be good for you but it does not have the level of support I need for my work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Wayne again - just tried TextEdit on one of our test documents. No styles support and it doesn&#8217;t even render indented lists vaguely correctly. It may be good for you but it does not have the level of support I need for my work.</p>
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		<title>By: ptsefton</title>
		<link>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1853</link>
		<dc:creator>ptsefton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 04:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1853</guid>
		<description>@Wayne

I'd be interested to hear what kinds of documents work for you, but I can tell you that that for the documents I use which conform to a template that uses styles, including list styles (which is the only way in OOo to get consistent formatting for our purposes) KOffice does not work. Try it. KOffice does not support list styles at all so they get lost.

If you read the post I'm talking about degrees of support any data you could help out with would be very useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Wayne</p>
<p>I&#8217;d be interested to hear what kinds of documents work for you, but I can tell you that that for the documents I use which conform to a template that uses styles, including list styles (which is the only way in OOo to get consistent formatting for our purposes) KOffice does not work. Try it. KOffice does not support list styles at all so they get lost.</p>
<p>If you read the post I&#8217;m talking about degrees of support any data you could help out with would be very useful.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1852</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 May 2008 00:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1852</guid>
		<description>Now that's hilarious. I've been using various programs that read-write ODF for a while, and had really good results. So far I've used Open Office on Windows, Linux, and Mac, KOffice on Linux, AbiWord, on Linux and Windows, and TextEdit on Mac, and had not problems at all moving files from one to the other.

So I get the impression that you don't have a clue, since KOffice, TextEdit, and AbiWord don't share the OOO code base.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now that&#8217;s hilarious. I&#8217;ve been using various programs that read-write ODF for a while, and had really good results. So far I&#8217;ve used Open Office on Windows, Linux, and Mac, KOffice on Linux, AbiWord, on Linux and Windows, and TextEdit on Mac, and had not problems at all moving files from one to the other.</p>
<p>So I get the impression that you don&#8217;t have a clue, since KOffice, TextEdit, and AbiWord don&#8217;t share the OOO code base.</p>
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		<title>By: SimBioSys Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Conformance problems: ODF and OOXML</title>
		<link>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1849</link>
		<dc:creator>SimBioSys Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Conformance problems: ODF and OOXML</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 16:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1849</guid>
		<description>[...] I linked to in my previous post about ODF supporting software is overly optimistic according to Peter Sefton&#8217;s blog. He demonstrates that only OpenOffice.org and StarOffice works properly with ODF while others have [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] I linked to in my previous post about ODF supporting software is overly optimistic according to Peter Sefton&#8217;s blog. He demonstrates that only OpenOffice.org and StarOffice works properly with ODF while others have [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: SMP</title>
		<link>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1848</link>
		<dc:creator>SMP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 15:43:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1848</guid>
		<description>[How many of the ODF cheer squad have read the standard? Dealt with document interop issues? Me, I have only glanced at the OOXML spec and so I don’t go around telling people about how bad it is.]

The people who have glanced at the OOXML standard and have said how bad it is for interop as well as how broken it is are standards experts, not members of the public of laymen like yourself. 

As far as interop is concerned the problem with OOXML is that nobody other than Microsoft can implement it properly because of its broken and incomplete nature. On top of that, its brokenness means that even Microsoft hasn't been able to implement it - the OOXML produced by the latest versions of MS Office are incompatible with the OOXML standard Microsoft submitted to ISO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[How many of the ODF cheer squad have read the standard? Dealt with document interop issues? Me, I have only glanced at the OOXML spec and so I don’t go around telling people about how bad it is.]</p>
<p>The people who have glanced at the OOXML standard and have said how bad it is for interop as well as how broken it is are standards experts, not members of the public of laymen like yourself. </p>
<p>As far as interop is concerned the problem with OOXML is that nobody other than Microsoft can implement it properly because of its broken and incomplete nature. On top of that, its brokenness means that even Microsoft hasn&#8217;t been able to implement it - the OOXML produced by the latest versions of MS Office are incompatible with the OOXML standard Microsoft submitted to ISO.</p>
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		<title>By: Zsolt Zsoldos</title>
		<link>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1847</link>
		<dc:creator>Zsolt Zsoldos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 15:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://ptsefton.com/2008/05/13/claims-about-odf-support-are-typically-meaningless.htm#comment-1847</guid>
		<description>OK, so from your tests it appears that only 2 applications are meaningfully conformant with the ODF standard: OpenOffcie.org and StarOffice from SUN. That is sad and hopefully others will imporve in time, but I would like to point out that even this count of 2 is 2 more than the number of applications conformant with OOXML, which is exactly zero at this moment, see:
http://www.griffinbrown.co.uk/blog/PermaLink,guid,3e2202cd-59a3-4356-8f30-b8eb79735e1a.aspx
and
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39388229,00.htm

ZZ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, so from your tests it appears that only 2 applications are meaningfully conformant with the ODF standard: OpenOffcie.org and StarOffice from SUN. That is sad and hopefully others will imporve in time, but I would like to point out that even this count of 2 is 2 more than the number of applications conformant with OOXML, which is exactly zero at this moment, see:<br />
<a href="http://www.griffinbrown.co.uk/blog/PermaLink,guid,3e2202cd-59a3-4356-8f30-b8eb79735e1a.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.griffinbrown.co.uk/blog/PermaLink,guid,3e2202cd-59a3-4356-8f30-b8eb79735e1a.aspx</a><br />
and<br />
<a href="http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39388229,00.htm" rel="nofollow">http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39388229,00.htm</a></p>
<p>ZZ.</p>
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